Quotes from the interview:
“Here’s the universal affects of image- the way you think, the way you feel, the way you act- and only then, the way others react or respond to you”
“Our young people haven’t got a clue where their waistline is, not a clue”
“What does professional mean in dress standards that I use?; authentic, appropriate, attractive and affordable “
“The number one fear is fashion. And I’m here to say, hey, it’s time to take out the fear, put back in the fun. “
“We need to define where it is we want to go, what we want to do, we need to make our dress and image part of our business plan”
“you’re never fully dressed without a smile. That’s the bottom line”
Interview with Judith Rasband – January 28, 2009
for Women in Business magazine by Sandy Hatchett
Sandy: Judith, welcome to this interview process. Thanks for hosting me here in your lovely office. Let’s begin with some personal information about you. Kind of who you are
S: where are you from? How do you identify yourself?
J: OK, born and raised in Washington state, long ways from here - wet , rainy, grey skies; I came to Utah to study dance at the University of Utah; big career ideas; first semester, stripped the tendons away from my ligaments in my calf and that was the end of that. And so I had to go into something else but I loved Utah; because we get sunshine and I really appreciate that. So I stayed.
S: So did you meet your husband here?
J: Yes, his sister set us up on a blind date, so I tell everybody- don’t make a big deal, a bad deal, about blind dates; I married mine, and I know a lot of people who do.
S: My parents are a blind date couple
J: Yeah, she fixed me up; took me years to figure it out, why she picked me; there is a logic; I was a “spur” up there and I was the sophomore honorary; we wore a uniform with this big megaphone or something on it; looked like a cheerleader but it wasn’t; I guess they have spurs, that’s what it was, spurs on it, and that was a service organization and they made me honorary and that uniform, we finally figured it out, that uniform communicated that I had a brain and I was organized, could get things done, and I was doing things, which she thought were things he would appreciate. It took me years to figure it out but I said; I didn’t know her, not well at all; how could she have picked me? And I decided the only thing that would have stood out would have been that uniform. And then it started to fall into place and make sense.
S: Ok; well, let’s talk for a second about your children, do you have children?
J: Yeah, four. Three birth children, one adopted from India.
S: Oh my.
J: One girl, three boys
S: So did you go to India?
J: No actually; par for the course, you know, when you’ve decided to adopt, lots of times you end up pregnant. Now we adopted an older child thinking we were too old to start over and I found I was pregnant and so I couldn’t go; that actually turned out to be a disaster because that little boy was stillborn. And I feel quite sure that Heavenly Father knew what I could and couldn’t handle. And that little boy, they told me was Downs Syndrome; when he was born, he looked fine to me, perfect, so I’ve always wondered, but if he had been and then with the problems we’ve had, I probably couldn’t have handled it. So I hope I get him someday.
S: He’s still yours.
J: That’s right
S: Ok so you were at the University. Quickly had to change course because you were going to dance, then you couldn’t -
J: Went into Home Economics education; I love the home arts, definitely high value there. And so I went into the home arts, home economics - should have been called home management and have a little more respect. I later specialized in the clothing area. That is a natural. All my high school years, I was the high school thespian; you know, school play, senior play all of that kind of stuff. And I learned early the communication factor in dress and grooming.
S: And that was just a natural interest?
J: Yeah, absolutely, one of the plays I was in I remember the name, Nuts in May, and the opening scene they’ve got me asleep in the bed and I get up - my hair then was clear down to my hips - and I got up and I do my hair in a wonderful French twist -and that was the most talked about thing- but it took me from very relaxed and homebody looking, to very professional as you go on into the play. But I was doing costumes and makeup and all that sort of thing for the character, just early on.
S: So at what point did you switch from theatre and costuming to what you do now?
J: Well, the dance, of course, went right along with that, musical comedy style and ballet - I lost that- it’s a natural, the creative arts; that’s what the home arts are and clothing, particularly fabrications, I mean, it’s in my fingers. The fabrics, the colors, the textures, I work with visual design and dress, so there they are, the elements of design: line, shape, color, texture, patterns.
S: So is that something that a person can get a degree in?
J: Yes
S: Is your degree in …?
J: My first degree is in home economics education, which now is called family and consumer science in a lot of places. They’ve tried to make it more, get more respect for the field, which people still do not. Not even in Utah; there’s very little value for the woman working in the home. But, get me back to where I was. Yes, a degree. Home economics education, which involves the nutrition, child development, rearing, psychology, sociology, anthropology & anatomy; all these things I use now constantly. The time management, money management - all of that ties in with dress. The psych ,values ,communication- all that sort of thing. So it was a natural to then focus on the clothing with colors, fabrics; I love that. And I don’t even design, really, I’m not a good fashion designer; I prefer the classics with a fashion forward creative edge to it; I do wonderful things; pulling the things together, that’s what I love.
S: So do you sew?
J: Yeah, oh yeah, tailor, all of that. My first job was teaching at University of Utah and I taught tailoring and visual design in dress. That was my first job. Then I taught junior high, high school, adult ed in Granite District in Salt Lake City. And then we went to graduate school in Princeton, New Jersey and that was a wonderful experience in cultural differences and the application to dress. We went from there as visiting professors down to Louisiana State University and again, totally different kind of a culture and wonderful experience and dress related; l the physical needs of dress, as you were in that terrible humidity there, which I still would say is terrible, miserable.
S: I’m from the Midwest, I understand.
J: Oh, you know what I’m talking about. When we moved back to New Jersey, I grew up in Washington, so I thought I knew what humidity was, wrong; humidity I got in the Midwest and New Jersey and then double barreled in Louisiana. So, physical needs became very paramount there. I started graduate school there in textiles, discovered that wasn’t for me. The machines for making things, that just isn’t where I am ; I’m definitely in the aesthetic or artistic aspect, the social psychological aspect, so that’s what I then did my next degree in; within the artistic, social psychological aspect of dress.
S: And where was
J: That was at BYU because by then my husband was back here on faculty as a physicist.
S: So is he retired from BYU?
J: Just now, uh huh, just now. Yeah. So I - within just a few months- they called and wanted me to come teach at BYU and I taught there for 12 years.
S: Oh, ok, but you’re not teaching there now
J: Because they lost the department
S: So that was a long time ago then
J: Long time, yep, long time ago
S: Ok so tell me; so is that what made you start your current business concept?
J: Well, the business end of it started when people, parents, started calling me and saying you know, you did this for my child, my daughter and so on, in your class; would you come and do it for me? And that’s how the private consulting got going. Not that I hadn’t done it in New Jersey and so on before that and taught private classes and such. But that’s one of the things I really started to hear and then the Daily Herald called me and wanted me to do a newspaper column and I loved that; I took flak for it but I loved it because (I was) getting the information to the people
J: My column came out here for years and then it went up to Salt Lake City and 16 papers in the west; and I was ten years with Deseret News; I loved it; only stopped because of my chemo; had to stop with my chemo.
S; And what year was that?
J: ’89; that year I know right off.
S: I suspected that you would know that
J: Everything is BC, before cancer; and after cancer.
S: I have some cancer survivors in my family so I understand, I understand that
S: So how do you, now in the position that you’re in, how do you reach out to women? I mean, I found you by seeing you on BYU television; so what do you do now to reach out to women?
J: The writing, I love the writing. We do retreats, but most of my work is by word of mouth; one woman to another, a man to his wife, a wife to her husband, a wife to the husband to the business owner and so on; seminars and public places and then the small group retreats, private consulting, they find me now, of course, more newly, on the internet. You know, we didn’t use to have that; in the phone book, it used to be the yellow pages they might find me and now it’s the internet
S: And you do consulting for men and women a lot.
J: You bet, absolutely, and children; families in crisis.
S: Really?
J: Yep
S: In crisis, as in?
J: Hating each other, conflicts, value conflicts of redress and appearance. You know, well the family where they’ve got a child who’s going off the deep end, extreme, in their dress and for a lot of people they’re gonna say “oh pick your battles, Judy”; it doesn’t matter, dress doesn’t matter; want to bet?; wrong. They get stuck in that phase, you know, people say it’s just a phase, well, guess what? Very often they get stuck in the phase.
S: And can you take that chance?
J: That’s right, you cannot take too many because of where it leads; how many have seen a 60 or 70 year old hippie?
S: I have
J: You know? They’re still stuck. And they’ve done very little in the way of self development or improvement. Done very little service for anybody else in the community, the world, or whatever, made very little contribution, just very self absorbed.
S: So how do you change the mind of a teenager?
J: That’s where the fun comes. Yeah, the psychology and working with it; oh it’s incredible and the scariest ones are the ones who their dress is going to take them down a road to drugs, alcohol and sex and so on; and we get it all the time.
S: And how would you describe that type of dress?
J: Well, the easiest, the obvious, is when they start dressing all black and chains
S: All “goth”?
J: Yeah, the “goth” look. That was definitely a timely look and we still get some of that. Right now, it’s deconstruction in dress. Where they take perfectly good dress and ruin it or they buy it already ruined at some high price
S: Where it’s torn and stained and the seams are on the outside
J: Yeah, see it’s not the traditional, it’s not the harmony, it’s not the classic look or even creative look; it’s totally deconstruction; take something that was nice and make it not nice; it’s a whole trend where what used to be nice isn’t anymore; it’s really sad.
S: And what do you say to kids when they say, well, that’s in style?
J: Well, then we have to find out where the style came from; and of course, in those cases, it’s hip hop designers who are trying to make the women, get the women to do extreme, some extreme aspect in dress; for example and I’m practically famous for this, but the manure pants. So you’ve got the dirt stain, dirty denim. Where did it come from? Hip hop designers, back east, who were aware of episodes in a new York city museum where the vandals spread fecal material over the pictures of Madonna and child, the Madonna and child. Oh hey, let’s see if we can get the girls to wear this on their clothes? So that’s where you get the brown stained denim. Now again, I’m practically famous for this one, it’s crazy, infamous, that’s a better word; the wrinkles at the crotch,
S: They call them whiskers?
J: Whiskers. You’ve got it and if you just think about it for a second or two, let’s see if we can get the girls to wear their pants looking as dirty as they can, which includes wrinkles at the crotch and we’re going to call them wrinkles. Attention goes to contrast, right smack to that crotch for casual sex. It’s exactly what it’s all about. Now it’s, I know what’s happening with some of the trends of that extreme sort and I can explain it to the young person and I have visuals, I have pictures
S: And what if the young person says, well, I’m not trying to get anybody to look at my crotch.
J: you may not be trying, but you can’t do anything about it because attention goes to contrast. That’s where their attention is going, regardless to whether you were intending or not. Now we’ve got a lot of people, they are intending. And that’s a key word that you just said right there and I will ask, what is your intent? And you gotta keep interviewing and interviewing to finally get them down to where they will tell the truth
S: And they say my intent is to be like my friends
J: That’s often what ‘s said, to fit in; but then we have to talk about - is it distracting?- and the key word is distracting. Is it distracting (from) the purpose of education in school, business leadership or worship, it doesn’t belong.
S: But what if they don’t value education, business leadership or worship?
J: That’s right; that’s what I’m dealing with; I’ve got to find something they do value; it’s around the block; it’s not easy; and my one line, it’s something else and I say “Hey, what I do is not rocket science; it’s harder. It’s harder.” You’re dealing with the psyche, you’re dealing with anatomy, and you know there are endless variables with both of those. And then we’re dealing with visual design where there are endless variables
S: and we become very emotional about our clothes
J: There you go. Anything to do with… It’s the most controversial topic, emotional controversial, second only to evolution.
S: So do you get feedback from people …
J: Oh you bet I do, I get the hate mail.
S: You can’t tell me what to wear?
J: Yeah, I get the hate mail; and it’s always nasty.
S: How do you feel about that?
J: It only reinforces what I’ve learned over the years. Because they’re always rude or crude, nasty; and the people who are nice to me, they look nice; look nice, feel nice, be nice, others are nicer to you.
S: So it doesn’t influence you in a negative way? Doesn’t hurt your feelings?
J: It could have years ago; I know it’s going to come with this because it is a personal and emotional subject and very close to home. Anything about dress is like, it’s a threat to them and I figured that out. I know that segment of the population is going to be mad at me and as long as I know that’s the possibility; no , it doesn’t hurt me at all because you know the rationale that they’re going to be using. Where I get hurt is if I don’t expect it. And that’ll happen once in awhile but not too often. Where I can get shot down is if there’s something that I haven’t thought of, that’s where, I’m always trying to figure it out before I go out there. Constant pondering -
S: But getting that feedback also gives you a place to focus your attention and figure that out?
J: Exactly. I got an interesting feedback; a fellow who at the end of the program regarding deconstruction, he said “get used to it babe; it’s post modern deconstruction” and the way he said it was very vile. He was trying to put me down and that one we get all the time; why are you so dressed up? You look terrific today, Sandy. They’re always going to say, why are you so dressed up? And they say it in such a way that it’s a put down to you to make you feel uncomfortable, out of place and to build them up. And it works. And our people right here in Utah have fallen for it, hook, line and sinker; it’s just amazing; you have to put - for the kids, going to school to look nice - you have to have something in their head to come out of their mouth. You know, “just say no”, you know, that kind of a thing. I tell them. When they’re saying, why don’t you wear this and this, “that’s not my style”. But you’ve gotta put it in their head to come out the mouth. And with the other, why are you so dressed up?, “well, it makes me feel terrific”. “Well, I’m worth it”. “Well, why are you so dressed down? “ Turn it around. One woman said, “this is my gift to you”. I got the biggest kick out of that. This was a gal from the south, just neat, a character from the word go, but fantastic, and she said that with every intent, genuine, wonderful, loving; “this is my gift to you”. In the workplace, “because I intend to keep my job”.
S: So dressing is way more than just picking things that look good together.
J: That’s right, absolutely. The soc/psych aspect is so, the world, but particularly Utah Valley, have enough scriptural acquaintance, and that’s all it is, no knowledge, acquaintance with the idea that dress is frivolous and vain; they’ve gone overboard that there should be no attention. I got a letter, oh my gosh, I saved it; it’s a marvelous letter, it’s so bad; the insights it gave me to this person who wrote me and tried to explain to me that we should give no thought to dress. Now this is, this is wrong.
S: IS that even possible?
J: No , not really, no, it’s an excuse. It’s an excuse. But people extrapolate, they take the idea that dress is vain and frivolous and therefore we should pay no attention to it.
S: Do you believe it’s possible to take that too far?
J: Oh yeah, absolutely. We’ve got people in Utah Valley that are not only ignorant but arrogant. We got men who take pride in not taking care of themselves.
S: But I mean is it possible that people could get so fixed on how they look?
J: Oh yes, that of course, either extreme, either extreme, gets us in trouble; you know extremes get us in trouble no matter what it is
S: Any topic
J: Yes, dress is interesting, dress and image because there is not one subject matter field out there that you can name that doesn’t have some relationship to dress. Not one.
S: OK, I’ll believe you
J: We could be here all day if we did that, but seriously, there is a relationship in every aspect of our lives, there is a clothing relationship in every one and most people don’t even think about it anymore.
S: We’re addressing women in business. So I’m a woman in business
J: And you’re looking terrific
S: Well, I’m trying to look appropriate for the setting that we’re in. Not every setting
J: Level three, you’ve got a jacket on; it’s coordinated but it’s not matched so there’s a relaxation there; it’s a fashion color, it’s brighter, it’s lively, which stimulates the conversation
S: But what if my job, if I’m a cake decorator, then this would be inappropriate
J: For that actual process of decorating a cake, you might get it onto that jacket and then you’re going to have to clean it more times than it should be and it’ll be worn out, you’ll waste your money, dadadada. But the need to pay attention to clothing is every bit as important; you want it durable, you’ve got to be able to clean it, get the dies out, things like that; because otherwise it becomes distracting to them. It’s got to be of a weight that’s going to be comfortable for the job that they’re doing; they’ve got to have shoes that are going to give the kind of support they need because most of the time they’re standing. So those are just a few things and probably in between doing the decorating maybe they’re managing the desk and taking orders
S: Waiting on customers
J: Yes, exactly; so there we need them to be able to focus on the face and what that person is communicating; they need to look knowledgeable, organized, efficient, effective; as this person places this order and they’ve got to appear that way also to set their price and have their price be accepted. And the styling they’re going to do on that cake, now see there, I’m using visuals to design a dress, the cake decorator’s using visuals to design a cake decoration, hello? The same thing. The gardener, all of them, same thing
S: And so the thing to do is if you’re dress matches your occupation, then you have the professional look without being a level three or four but you look completely professional
J: Ok now what does professional mean? You see every word has to be defined; what does professional mean in dress standards that I use? authentic, appropriate, attractive and affordable – authentic for the role; what they’re actually doing
S: Perhaps that’s the word I am using
J: Now appropriate, looking like you belong in that role; you know what to do, how to do it, how to get it done and they’re gonna get it done. So that calls for different things depending on the profession and that calls even for difference within the profession depending on what geographical area of the country we’re living in. With our clientele, all of this sort of thing has come into whatever that dress code is.
S: .. sometimes it seems like, as I go around as a consumer, that people don’t require much of their employees
J: Not anymore I know, why do you think everybody’s going out of business? Nobody knows how to do anything anymore.
S: But do you suppose the people avoid that because they don’t know what to require, are afraid to require, all of that?
J: Absolutely, definitely. Now there is no real dress code except the one that I created – the style scale, personal professional style scale, and that works, that gives you a visualization, dressing up and down means something, and we can define it in terms of the elements of design. What are those actual cues? You know everybody says or hears at some point, or reads at some point, “look out for the message you’re sending”. Or” watch out about the statement you’re sending”.
S: If you don’t know how to send a statement, it doesn’t matter what it is
J: That’s right, but what they really don’t know is they haven’t gotten a clue what’s doing the talking; and what’s doing the talking are the elements and principles of design, the lines, shapes, colors, textures and patterns. How they’re put together; the balance proportion scale, the rhythmic eye movements throughout the outfit leading to one dominant focal point and for business, leadership needs to be up around the face; social, it can be lower on the body. Relaxed or social, but for business leadership, it’s your face where you communicate and you’ve got to have the focus up there. And if we’ve got a hole in the $360 Levis, that’s distracting, attention goes away from the face; we get the character who in his arrogance who wears the white shirt, which there’s nothing sacred about that, by the way, but he wears the French cuff and he lets them all flop. He doesn’t put a cuff link and he lets them flop and he thinks he’s being cool but what does that really mean? Well, they think they’re being brave; they’re so brave they’ll do that and I’m not, we’re not, we’re not brave enough to wear our cuff link shirts without cufflinks. But what they don’t realize, it’s just totally distracting with things flapping around; they’re never going to accomplish a real goal; it’s not going to happen; they’re going to make a major statement of defiance but they’re not going to accomplish anything of value.
S: And so defiance, sort of works at odds with cooperation, progress
J: Absolutely, defiance and rebellion, and they’re intent with those sleeves flapping, their intent is to make a statement; I’m cool, my dad wore his shirts buttoned there at the cuff; I’m so brave, I choose not to; I refuse to do that. It’s a rebellion, defiance.
S: And people think though that rebellion is the beginning of progress and you would disagree with that
J: Oh yeah, absolutely. People think that dress is a safe way to rebel. What they’re really doing is saying they’re pretty stupid. What they’re really doing, the little gal I saw in the store yesterday, pushing the grocery cart, probably was a student, she’s there with a roommate and she’s (wearing) a t shirt and pink pajamas on. Yeah, the grocery store. And it’s just flannel and they’re fuller cut, you know, to be comfortable in bed, so these pants are made out of flannel. What. She thinks she’s cute. Not. And she’s actually looking pretty much heavier than she really was and she wasn’t trim and that’s alright too, depending on her values there and her health. But it becomes distracting, a little pattern in the pajama bottom and you see, in the grocery store that did not communicate she knew what she was doing where and so on. She thinks she’s really clever and what it really looks like is she doesn’t know how to dress. She hasn’t got a clue. She’s doing this because it’s a trend she’s following, she’s a follower. And so there’s probably little leadership ability, probably, and notice my word, probably, because I don’t really know, but what is she communicating?
S: You’ve observed her
J: Yeah, that’s right, the observation. And what’s really coming across is that there is little organization, efficiency, effectiveness; it’s not gonna happen; she’s more caught up in herself, very self absorbed; that’s what comes across because she’s choosing to wear her pajamas that she got out of bed in or to look like that and has come to the store. In that attire, the people are not going to accomplish what they could accomplish if they weren’t caught up in that sort of thing, which is what they are. We could talk all day
S: So they couldn’t, they certainly could purchase groceries in their pajamas but you’re talking about in the bigger picture of their lives that that kind of attitude that drives you to wear your pajamas to the grocery store will limit you in other areas.
J: yeah, exactly and she’s expressing a defiance. A substantial degree of defiance; thinks it’s cute, thinks its clever, thinks she’s brave because her roommate and others aren’t doing it; she’s the brave one. When, if I do the surveys, and I do, we do the surveys, and it’s gonna come down to dumb and stupid.
S: So when you survey people ?
J: I show them a picture and ask what it communicates. That’s all I say. They’ll ask me all sorts of questions, I give no answers, it’s up to you; your impression, your observation. What comes to mind; what’s your first descriptive thought
S: Do you notice if somebody is wearing pajamas, if they would describe that person differently than someone like you and I. I would look at that and I would probably say it looks stupid, but what if you’re a pajama wearer, would that person look at that and relate to that in a different way?
J: They also think they are cute and clever; we tend to attract, likes attract like; ok, we know that; and so they’re most comfortable with people who dress like themselves. That is just standard psychology there, that we’re more comfortable with people who are like us and so we seek that out.
S: So the adjective they would use would be much more positive.
J: Oh yes, absolutely. But if you really keep at them in an inquisitory kind of a way, you eventually get down to rock bottom and it’s an amazing experience when they get down there. I was with a college group and (asked) what does it mean to be in fashion? And somebody, without even thinking, she said, “.. fashionable, to be in style”, that was it; ; what does it mean to be in style? “fashionable”. What does that mean? “Edgy” What does that mean? ”Sexy” and it was out and then looking around. This was a board group.
S: Is there a difference to you between fashion and style?
J: Absolutely.
S: And what would that difference be?
J: Well, fashion and even there (are) different definitions of fashion. Fashion is the prevailing look of the times. And fashion is the mirror of history. And if you think about that, we’re living in a very scary time right now of rebellion, it’s a very scary time. Style, very simply is the combination of line creating a shape in a garment. So you have clothing styles, an A line skirt a straight skirt, trousers versus slacks, the styling is different. The styling is created with a line and shape.
S: So we use styling perhaps more casually than we should?
J: Oh no, because they are all culture, culturally, but no, it’s still you’ve got one word with several different meanings. A person has a particular style. If they have one kind of a look, that can be considered their style, ok? So there’s “in style”, there’s style which is the style of the garment, there’s in style looking like everybody else and there is having style which is generally something unique to the individual. And the ones of the icons we hear all the time, Fred Astaire, Audrey Hepburn, Princess Grace, and we can come more current now too and but now sadly it’s all celebrities of course. What are they trying to do? They’re trying to get media attention so they want to go as extreme- they want to shock everybody as extremely as they possibly can think of. So for them to be the icons now is really, really sad but that’s what kids are doing and of course Brittany was the quintessential , I didn’t say that right, but you know what I mean, Brittany with her low rider and
S: Can I say how glad I am that’s going away
J: Going maybe. Our young people haven’t got a clue where their waistline is, not a clue, yes, they’re trying to reverse that, you know, low rider, now we’re to empire again. What is crazy there, all of our maternity clothes are now - the gals who are pregnant are wearing the tight t shirts like the teens and the teens are wearing the maternity tops. Just exactly with the empire, loose empire line, just exactly.
And why did they do that sort of thing? Because mom isn’t. Whatever mom isn’t wearing, mom and dad, that’s what they’re, the next generations, gonna want to wear.
S: So what do you say to people who say, women wore dresses down to the ground and there were people, when the hemlines went up, who went, “oh!”
J: Well, clear to the floor, that’s an extreme isn’t it?
S: Well but it wasn’t, it was the norm, it was the norm; when the dresses came up, there were people who said that was wrong
J: They had totally accepted the extreme, so then it comes up and it’s “oh!”, yes?.
S: But today, let’s fast forward to today, what do you say to people who say you are trying to maintain something and not moving?
J: They just haven’t seen my visual demonstrations because if they are actually ever around me they would see this incredible wide range of things we do, never a problem in that sense. Not trying to keep anybody in a slot or anything like that, uh uh. And that’s where the style scale works so well because it allows the mix of levels 4 and 1 and we show them how to do it; we’ve gotta have a concept and a strategy people can work with. Part of the problem with fashion right now, in dress and image, is people have forgotten how to do it; we’ve got three generations who no longer have a clue how to dress; they weren’t taught in the home, they’re not taught in the schools anymore and GenX and GenY and so on; so they’ve forgotten, they’ve never learned and they don’t know how to dress, but nobody’s about to admit it so you have to put it down to make them feel better, right? And that’s what they’ve done. There is greater fear now about fashion than there’s ever been historically, ever.
S: And who’s afraid?
J: The people who don’t know how to dress. They’re totally fearful. You know it used to be the number one fear, supposedly, the world’s number one fear was public speaking; it’s not anymore, everyone wants their 5 or 15 minutes on Oprah.
S: on the internet or
J: and on the reality shows, so it’s not that anymore. The number one fear is fashion. And I’m here to say, hey, it’s time to take out the fear, put back in the fun. Fashion used to be fun. It was something that added variety to life, it was fun to get up and say, you know, who do I want to be today, who am I, where am I going? What do I want to communicate? It was fun. And we wore a variety. It’s no longer fun - In jeans and t shirts every day of your life or polo and khakis every day of your life. We’ve lost the fun, there’s no creativity, there’s no artistry anymore. There’s little harmony, very little beauty; we’re losing all of those things.
S: And so what do you think your role is in keeping that from happening?
J: Well I don’t know that I can keep it from happening. We may already be too far. I predicted exactly where we are right now,including the economic meltdown; ’85 I wrote a piece called “America’s going down the tube in a tshirt” and I said this and this and this and this is where we’re headed, what’s gonna happen and guess what? We’re there; it’s already, yeah, the dot com bust, I predicted that; nobody could predict 9-11 but the minute it happened I said, now we’re going to go a little bit back to nicer dressing because the minute you have a scare, a threat, you go back into classic dressing because we made it through the last time and maybe that will help us get through it this time; we retreat; then we moved right out of that quick. And so we’re really into the deconstruction for so many people.
S: So where do you see the future?
J: The future, if I and others like me, can find a vehicle, a voice, to re-teach the points about, the elements of design, visual design in dress, to re-teach people visual design in dress, we could turn it around. But people say, it’s gonna swing, the pendulum will swing; not once you’ve lost the information. Once the information is gone, nobody pulls it back up because they don’t even know where to go. And that’s happening, we’re there now. So I will have to, before I die out, I’m going to have to find a vehicle, and I’m working on it, but I don’t know that my lifetime will allow me to do it, in which case, we may be the unisex dressing, jeans and tshirts and sweats for men and women from now on. That’s it. The suit which is a negative put down; people wearing suits, usually are government politicians kinds of people; uniform people and so on, police, all of that; they will continue to be the keepers of the flame, the fire, try to keep things right but they’re losing control. We are headed for anarchy. And all you have to do is look at dress and anarchy is what’s here.
S: Wow, ok, so we should be afraid?
J: Yeah, we absolutely should be. America’s just a little over 200 years (in) existence, right? If you get into history, great civilizations, after they passed about 200 years, they start to fall, and we’re right there and it’s happening. Very scary.
S: So you don’t work here alone?
J: No.
S: As we toured through here earlier, you spoke of others. So how many people work with you here?
J: I like that word “with”, I don’t like “for”; they work with me, we’re very much colleagues. It depends because we will have people come through our educational training and they will work with me for awhile and then often they move, especially here in Utah Valley where I live, because you’ve got all these universities, university students, and I may get someone who wants to go into this field; they’ll study with me, develop their skills and so on, but when one of the married couple graduates and they move away. So I’ve got wonderful people out in the field, different places; right now, here, we’re slower right now with having a lot of people here to work with me and that kills me, I would love to have more. I just am always looking for the bright star, the person who’s going to be able to take over and, I’ve gotten us to a certain place with information, concepts and strategies I’ve developed. Truths I’ve been able to work out; I don’t want it to die when I die and I teasingly say, I’m looking at the end of the runway. But I still run circles around virtually everybody else who works with me or for me, whatever; they all talk about that. But I’m looking for that bright star.
S: So do you have other people who work with you who teach your …
J: Yeah, concepts; It’s not just mine, classic, bonafide art and science of dress and image; the people who go through architecture, it’s the same thing; I’m teaching the same thing, just in reference to dress instead of a building, ok?
S: So you teach people not only to do it personally, to personally dress and develop their own image and style, but you also teach people how to teach others.
J: Yes and too, they think they want to do what I do and I teach and educational training in that; very intensive.
S: And both of those things are part of your…
J: Prior to consulting with individuals we’ll do group consulting, seminar workshop kinds of things; I do seminars for associations, business groups, government groups, you name it and then I write text books and trade books; in the field, we’ve done DVD, got a new book coming out, in fact, one of the books; this will blow your mind. I’m right now, we just turned in the manuscript to our New York publisher for a book I wrote with my colleagues in 1976, try that one. It’s still a best seller in the field, and they called us about a year and a half ago to do a new edition. We’re thrilled, thrilled out of our minds, that’s so exciting.
S: and how much did you have to change it, from 1976?
J: Oh the learning, the new learnings that we’ve come up with, the new strategies, is phenomenal. It’s going to be a magnificent book; it was the best in field before but now it’s utterly incredible; it’s the bible in the field of fitting and alteration; very technical; thousands of illustrations; and Kathy Adams here in my office, she has become literally the world’s finest computer illustrator for this pattern work, she’s wonderful.
S: And she works with you?
J: Yeah, with me, we’ve been together about almost 18 years now. There’s never a bad word between us. Wonderful. The people I work with are fantastic.
S: So did she come to you skilled or did she develop that?
J: She developed it; her family is highly skilled with computers; it was something she wanted to develop when she came; we were acquainted previously and then I heard her one day say, “she’s probably gonna have to get a job”; oh what kind?; oh probably in banking; what?; you can manage the books? And so I hired her to take over all my bookkeeping. And then office manager and then, and as we do, we want our employees or friends to progress in ways they want to progress and I asked her, now, you’ve been doing this and this and this and this with me for all this time now, how would you like to grow? And she said it was in her computer graphic skills and so on. I said, you bet. So the one woman who then was doing the computer graphic kind of work had moved to Nephi and so it wasn’t working out so well back and forth, you know. And so Kathy took over her position and then I hired somebody to take over what Kathy’d done. So I’d, this kind of rotation, we’ve done.
S: So you would say you have personal friendship with these women?
J: You bet, wonderful people.
S: And so currently, how many women are we talking about? You two and how many other women? In your organization now.
J: Well, I’ve got over a hundred who are affiliates around the country, who are active to differing degrees. Depending on their lifestyle, their stage of life, things like that, to different degrees. Right here in Utah Valley now, right now because most people have moved away, I don’t have anybody but in March, I do an educational training and we’ve got two Utah residents, two coming to the program and that’s exciting. And one of them’s mid age lifestyle and so she’s not gonna probably be moving away. I’m excited about that.
S: Maybe someone who could hold the torch for a little while.
J: Absolutely, that’s what I’m looking for
S: So let’s talk about fashion things as they pertain specifically to women in the workplace; and then I want to talk just a little bit about women in the home. In the workplace, what our biggest challenge is in terms of workplace dressing.
J: Two things, to look like we’ve got a brain and to have the clothing fit so it’s not distracting. So our body shape doesn’t distract people, attention of people, from our work. So those would be the two. Looking like we’ve got a brain, you know if someone says, “oh my gosh, he looks so sharp”, “she looks so sharp”, where did that come from. From the pointed collar, the pointed edge on a collar; that’s where that statement came. Oh my, he looks so sharp. It’s the pointed collar; wearing a collar.
S: Pressed?
J: Yes. No starch, no starch, I recommend we don’t use any starch, uh uh. Tends to be more uncomfortable and it’s not necessary. So ideally and when you use that word professional that you used earlier, working with the tailored elements of design, it’s straight lines, angular shapes
S: And those are more appropriate generally in a business setting?
J: In a business setting because they communicate; straight lines communicate alertness, sharpness, the diagonal line communicates action- gonna get it done. That kind of thing. And the collar look is excellent; it lifts the look, brings our face for better communication but for a woman also, if we have a full body area in that upper torso, the collar distracts attention from that body area; we want enough ease in the fit of the clothing
S: So that you don’t have the buttons pull
J: That’s right but it’s stress lines too; the buttons may or may not be pulled but there’s stress lines and they radiate right around the bust area. It’s like a red flag, it says look here, and these lines say this is the place, hello. It doesn’t work, it doesn’t work, it’s distracting. So straighter lines, more angles. That is not to say we can’t wear a t shirt but even then, don’t make it an underwear shirt, make it a little bit more of a scoop; we get a little dark-light contrast with the skin because of the clothing; it bespeaks something that isn’t underwear and then we can even have the third layer piece of clothing, have the collar on it; and so you’ve got lots of options there.
S: Now do you recommend the third layer? In a business setting?
J: Ideally, make your statement the beginning of the day; or if you’re giving a presentation, it’s easy to put it on the back of your chair if you’re too warm; if you just want a little more ease of movement, even then, and see this is where people are so wrong again, they assume business clothes have to be uncomfortable, physically uncomfortable. Nonsense. We’ve got softer fabrics now. And we get enough ease in there. We’ve also got a little bit of the elastic and so on, spandex in there, it’s easy to get comfort in dress now if it’s properly fitted. And an ease amount, that’s what we’re looking for; a little bit of ease around the upper arm, around the bust, around our middrift and so on those areas; then on down, of course, with our tummies and bellies and behinds, side thighs, those things; we’ve gotta have enough ease for the clothing to flow over that body area; that’s what’s key, the clothing can just ease over that area
S: But sometimes people say “I look like a tent”
J: No, we can show off that waist, we can have it darted, belted, lots of things and there’s where we were talking earlier; everybody can wear a belt, they just don’t know how, and if they layer it, then my teasing comment, you’ve got a 4 inch waist but they just need to be taught how; you see women used to know how to do it. And we lost that information now.
S: So where do we go to get that information?
J: By the way, chamber meeting, a week ago Friday, I put up a display; we get to do that quite often, I put up a display and I had a picture of a woman, straight on and she had side thighs I tell you that didn’t quit. Now I’ve got side thighs, you’re welcome to look at them, but she had side thighs that were twice the size of me; and she was wearing black pants in the before picture; and as people walked by, I had one man say, oh poor girl, with reference to these side thighs; but then the next, the after picture, I’ve got her in a duster, and it’s a duster vest and it’s fantastic and everybody says, oh, liposuction, wrong; strictly dressing her in a way that minimize those thighs. The fabric skimmed right past, there’s nothing wrong with a rectangular silhouette, straight hanging silhouette. And attention went into the middle, she looks slim, went up to the face, it was marvelous. But from poor girl with dominant attention to those side thighs to absolutely looking slim, totally confident, capable, credible, all of those good kinds of things.
S: So the duster means that it came down
J: It came (down), this third layer piece came to just above the calf. A duster’s meant to be there. A duster is just a long shirt or long vest, that’s all it is; it’s pretty ordinary but it has a sheik kind of a look; people, that’s not my word, that’s what people say, oh my gosh, look she’s so sheik. It’s a style of clothing but it communicates style; she’s doing something out of the ordinary, very special and it causes her to appear very slim, not obtuse, no distracting bulges on the body so attention goes into the middle; the color contrast at the opening and up to her face; and you know we’re straight on for either good communications in a social situation or a work situation, it works. So the two things there; ease and some straighter lines in the business world. Right now we’ve got so much fru fru, we’ve got girly clothes.
S: Too much distraction really
J: yeah, and cuteness and you used the word, cutesy, that’s my word too; the minute we look cutesy, people aren’t going to take us seriously; not in handling their money and handling their business and so on, doesn’t work.
S: So is it still a male world? The business world?
J: No. It is definitely not and we’ve got so many women owned businesses, uh uh, absolutely not. But it is a tailored world. We need to look like we mean business. We need to appear as though we know what to do, how to do, there I go again you see. And that’s the tailored look, the straighter lines
S: That we’re focused, we’re efficient, that we’re organized,
J: yep, draw attention in and up, yep;
S: Now what if you work at home?
J: Same thing
S: So you dress up if nobody can see you?
J: That’s right because it affects you first. Now here’s where I’m coming from, the way you appear, and I put it this way, the way you choose to present yourself; see you’re the one in charge, the way you choose to present yourself, affects the way you think. Here’s the universal affects of image: the way you think , the way you feel, the way you act and only then, the way others react or respond to you.
S: So the first person you impact with your dress is you?
J: That’s right
S: and you can’t escape from you
J: No you can’t; and you’re not looking at your clothes but even your peripheral vision will see the colors and those will influence you; you feel the fabric on your body, that will influence you; you either feel sharp or you feel dowdy; you feel confident or you feel down;
S: Sloppy or
J: That’s right; when we are in sloppy kinds of clothes, we shuffle; you start watching people, they slump and they shuffle; do you know women’s magazines have always had articles about posture; I have never seen our magazines about posture for men until recently because our men in their flip flops and their super sloppy clothes are shuffling around, slopping around. And all of a sudden, we’re getting posture articles for men. You know there’s a logic; everthing that’s going on, there is a logic, I promise.
S: interesting – so if I wanted to take my business to the next level; if I wanted to be seen as more credible at what I do, what kind of impact can I expect from putting focus on the appearance of myself and my employees?
J: You know, everybody uses this language, take yourself to the next level; no one defines the level, what the next level is; everybody uses it loosely, we need to define where it is we want to go, what we want to do, we need to make our dress and image part of our business plan.
S: And we should dress ahead, maybe, of where we are?
J: That’s very possible if you’re aiming someplace else, yeah, definitely. But you’ve got to be careful; some of the things that are out there, they’ll say you gotta dress like your boss – wrong. Maybe your boss is dressing like a slob, you don’t want to go there. And you don’t have to go way above, I mean, a leather jacket, a suede jacket, terrific in the workplace. Straighter lines, it’s got a nice body, a firmness to itself; but it has a relaxed texture to it, you with me? And it works. So you’ve got options; boiled wool, wonderful fabric; zipper down the front, doesn’t have to be a double breasted jacket. You’ve got all these options; if you want and using that word level, that’s what I use with the style scale; level four, that matched suit is the dress code; the cue, the clue, the symbol of level 4, tailored dress, most authoritative, is a matched suit. But I showed today, in my seminar on campus, a denim suit, but it was kind of a yellowy tan color; it was a safari jacket style and a flared skirt, flared lower at the bottom, the way the trend has been; fantastic suit, level 4; but it’s way down on level 4. I’ll dress down, we go to level 3. Softly tailored – we recognize it by a jacket; now today, in your picture, that’d be good, today, you’re wearing this fun apple green jacket contrasted with the white shirt. Both of them contrasting with the reddish tint to your hair; it’s great. You stand out; you’re the focal point; people connect with you, communicate with you. I know right where you are and where you’re coming from. It works. That jacket, level 3; if in doubt, wear your jacket. It’ll move you up but it could be something as relaxed, low on level 3 as a jean jacket, we do it all the time. It’s a bomber style and we do it all the time; so there’s options; I do one seminar where I have maybe 30 different jackets on the rack, all go with the core pieces; and all I have to do is tell the audience, each person in the audience, to pick out your favorite jacket. They’re showing me their personal style. And then I can define it. And then they can do it again.
S: Do people, is it possible or even right, wrong – I’m not sure I asked cause I’m so, you know, ignorant of this world that you live in
J: I used the word ignorant but let’s say unknowledgable, ok
S: ok to mix things from different levels
J: Oh we do it, that’s the whole point, that’s where you arrive at personal style. So casual, tailored level 2, the cue or clue or symbol is a shirt with a collar and untailored level 1 is no collar.
S: I’ve seen blouses that are very nice fabric, very lovely tailor, no collar
J: That’s right, that’s right and it’s a higher quality fabric and construction; your dress code can embody
S: So do they stay in the number one just because they’re collarless
J: The top is level 1 but it’s high on level 1 because it’s a finer fabric, more refined fabric and that’s the word, refined; more refined fabric and perfect construction, outstanding quality in the construction; now, put that jewel neck blouse, under a crepe, a wool crepe and polyester crepe, a silk crepe suit jacket, ok?
S: With a matching skirt or pants
J: That’s right, now you’ve got your level 1 top with a level 4 jacket, that’s exactly right, your level four suit, that’s exactly right. Yep. That’s how you do it. We could take that level 4 suit and put a shawl collar on it instead of a notched lapel; put a shawl that’s rounded lines, you see, we softened the look. That’ll be lower on level 4 than the woman or the man in a notched collared suit
S: Ok we talked a lot about clothes; what about accessories?
J: OK there’s going to be the same level 4, level 3, level 2, level 1 in accessories also. That closed toe, heeled pump, a woman’s pump, is going to give greater visibility and therefore, visual authority. Flip flops don’t cut it and they’re noisy and distracting; so again, that word distracting.
S: How about just an open toed shoe?
J: Open toed, again, how much? Is it a peek toe? Which is about the size of your finger tip, no big deal, wear it. It’s when we start seeing the colors of the nails or uncut nails or dirty toenails, that’s when we’re in trouble. Cracked heels, that’s why; wear the closed heeled shoe. We’ve got people who are sick to death of seeing everybody’s cracked dirty heels in their flip flops; of course, the posture goes down, they don’t look like they can stand up straight, got trouble
S: What about hosiery?
J: Hosiery, oh that’s it, now you hit a beaut. That one’s controversial.
S: It’s a sticky topic, isn’t it?
J: We’ve gotten lazy in virtually all areas of dress, we’ve gotten lazy. It takes another step to put on a stocking. It’s definitely going to tie in with the temperature outside where you live
S: So is it ever appropriate to skip the hosiery?
J: Absolutely and that’s where I’m headed. It’s going to depend on how long the skirt is, what the weight of the fabric is, the shape of your leg, the condition of your leg; we’ve got women 50, 60 and 70 going without stockings. I was at a fashion show just last week, literally a fashion show, and they were older models and this gal was there with no stockings. I happened, she came around the L shape there, I happened to look at her legs; it was a disaster and she was out there with no stockings; she so needed the stockings on to soften the look of the legs, the mottling, the spotting, the varicose veins and all of this and that; she so needed a stocking. You say when can we go without them, or ask that, it’s if we’re going to wear a longer skirt. If you want to go without stockings, wear a longer skirt.
S: Is at your knee and above, put on your stockings?
J: That’s right, put on your stockings.
S: No matter how beautiful your legs are?
J: That’s right, it’s just so important. There was a gal on the cover of a fashion magazine and they had her in a great looking suit and she was squatted down so from the front of the magazine, you got her calf, the calf of her shin, her leg, her shin, thank you. And what you saw, she was Asian with very dark hair, what you saw was all those hair follicles; black hair follicles. Not that neat. I swear our young women have prettier legs than we ever had; I don’t know why, they look smoother, I agree, they look smoother, they look nicer. And very youthful and that beautiful, smooth kind of a look; a skirt to the knee, just an inch under the knee, I can handle it too. But so many times where the leg, even, is eye level, and that’s when not. Now clothing sets, this is an important point, clothing sets the parameters of social expectations. Ok. You put on that third layer, it doesn’t make you look fat, but it is somewhat larger, it draws more attention to you and communicates more visual authority, that layer; stockings, that was a protective layer, it was a modesty layer; that sheer stocking over your leg says “hands off”. We take off that stocking and I’ve had the men tell me and I had one man literally, very bold, ran his hand straight up my leg and he told me “that’s my territory”. Now that’s the arrogance we’re dealing with. The gals have not grown up with them; their mothers or grandmothers wear them, therefore they refuse to wear them. So we’re right back to the rebellion thing. That’s why it’s happened. On purpose
S: Men don’t have this stocking challenge.
J: Oh hey, do they, haven’t you read the latest there? They’re wearing tights. Men in tights? They’re wearing a full tight all the way up their leg. Gals know, you do that, pants over tights; they pull on each other, right? Miserable.
S: Why do they do it?
J: Because it’s weird, because it’s different; it’s a bit shocking. Anything for attention, that’s what it is. Totally for attention
S: I can’t imagine that I would put on hosiery that I didn’t have to wear
J: But the stocking thing; if we want to go without the stockings, very simply, wear a longer skirt, it’s easy. Not a problem.
S: Ok, so there are times when it’s ok to be without stockings
J: When you want to appear more refined, more refined, not drawing attention to your body; the stockings, that’s when you’re gonna wear them. And you get a nice sheer one.
S: When you’re dressed at level 4, would you most likely have on a stocking
J: Yes, that will be one of the characteristics; absolutely; you’ve got the straight lines, angular shapes, darker, duller colors, strong dark/light contrast, firm fabric, and geometric pattern. Then you would add more structure, generally the shoulder pad, see there’s power, visual shape there, I don’t want to use the power look. Visual shape there, solidity, a lift to the look, a little broader, stronger, inverted triangle it creates. And then we go to - and I looked at the clock as she did, that too, what are we doing by the way
S: We have to stop, it’s time for you to go, I could talk to you…
J: We could talk forever, but add to that listing , more structure, more refined quality, and you see, that’s what’s at level 4 and that’s where the stocking comes in. Hosiery is one of the characteristics, symbols of level 4. And the finest mens stockings is called hosiery also. You get down to level 1 and it’s no stockings, no hosiery, so again, it’s just the opposite. Once you learn the two opposites, it’s a piece of cake, and you do in fact, mix in between and that’s where you create your own personal style. You start doing it, understanding it, you’re having fun again. Fun with fashion. And then it’s filling not only these needs, physical, psychological, social, aesthetic needs
S: And can you not draw the reaction, the respect, the things that you want, what you say, to you by the way you dress? Instead of telling people
J: Absolutely. We’re talking about respect for the individual, respect for the self, respect for others, respect for the occasion. Those three. And that’s what we’ve lost.
S: So in 30 seconds, do you have any hobbies outside of fashion?
J: Oh yeah, food. I love to cook, love to eat
S: What’s your favorite down time thing, if you had an hour
J: Theatre; I just got my tickets for Madame Butterfly, the ballet; I’ve never seen a ballet of Madame Butterfly, it’s new; my husband and I love theatre, be it ballet, any kind of dance, any kind of dance, in the theatre
S: So your first passion is still theatre
J: I love it , and again it’s that expression, that expressive art form
S: And when you watch theatre, can you relax and enjoy it, or do you watch the costuming?
J: If they’re doing a good job, no you get totally into it; you are totally absorbed by the, what they’re creating
S: and so if they’ve not done a good job, then it’s a distraction to you?
J: I might, oh my gosh, they should have done this with the shoulder; they should have done that with the hem, yeah, that can happen too. You know, people ask me, and if I can conclude on this, people ask me, don’t you get sick of looking at people? We don’t do that, we tend to notice those that look very good and those that look very bad; now in people watching, that’s a good thing to do, and figure out why. When you’re looking sharp, we tend not to even, it’s just very nice, we tend not to notice at all. And I don’t, I forget all about it. We tend to notice the very good and the very bad
S: So if you want to be noticed, you have to be one of those I suppose?
J: yeah, well, to get noticed, to get attention. If we don’t have enough attention in our lives, people use clothing to get it, dress and grooming to get the attention. But it’s often negative attention. One of my bottom lines is, you’re never fully dressed without a smile. That’s the bottom line.
Sandy: Thank you, let’s just stop on that very positive, happy note.
“Here’s the universal affects of image- the way you think, the way you feel, the way you act- and only then, the way others react or respond to you”
“Our young people haven’t got a clue where their waistline is, not a clue”
“What does professional mean in dress standards that I use?; authentic, appropriate, attractive and affordable “
“The number one fear is fashion. And I’m here to say, hey, it’s time to take out the fear, put back in the fun. “
“We need to define where it is we want to go, what we want to do, we need to make our dress and image part of our business plan”
“you’re never fully dressed without a smile. That’s the bottom line”
Interview with Judith Rasband – January 28, 2009
for Women in Business magazine by Sandy Hatchett
Sandy: Judith, welcome to this interview process. Thanks for hosting me here in your lovely office. Let’s begin with some personal information about you. Kind of who you are
S: where are you from? How do you identify yourself?
J: OK, born and raised in Washington state, long ways from here - wet , rainy, grey skies; I came to Utah to study dance at the University of Utah; big career ideas; first semester, stripped the tendons away from my ligaments in my calf and that was the end of that. And so I had to go into something else but I loved Utah; because we get sunshine and I really appreciate that. So I stayed.
S: So did you meet your husband here?
J: Yes, his sister set us up on a blind date, so I tell everybody- don’t make a big deal, a bad deal, about blind dates; I married mine, and I know a lot of people who do.
S: My parents are a blind date couple
J: Yeah, she fixed me up; took me years to figure it out, why she picked me; there is a logic; I was a “spur” up there and I was the sophomore honorary; we wore a uniform with this big megaphone or something on it; looked like a cheerleader but it wasn’t; I guess they have spurs, that’s what it was, spurs on it, and that was a service organization and they made me honorary and that uniform, we finally figured it out, that uniform communicated that I had a brain and I was organized, could get things done, and I was doing things, which she thought were things he would appreciate. It took me years to figure it out but I said; I didn’t know her, not well at all; how could she have picked me? And I decided the only thing that would have stood out would have been that uniform. And then it started to fall into place and make sense.
S: Ok; well, let’s talk for a second about your children, do you have children?
J: Yeah, four. Three birth children, one adopted from India.
S: Oh my.
J: One girl, three boys
S: So did you go to India?
J: No actually; par for the course, you know, when you’ve decided to adopt, lots of times you end up pregnant. Now we adopted an older child thinking we were too old to start over and I found I was pregnant and so I couldn’t go; that actually turned out to be a disaster because that little boy was stillborn. And I feel quite sure that Heavenly Father knew what I could and couldn’t handle. And that little boy, they told me was Downs Syndrome; when he was born, he looked fine to me, perfect, so I’ve always wondered, but if he had been and then with the problems we’ve had, I probably couldn’t have handled it. So I hope I get him someday.
S: He’s still yours.
J: That’s right
S: Ok so you were at the University. Quickly had to change course because you were going to dance, then you couldn’t -
J: Went into Home Economics education; I love the home arts, definitely high value there. And so I went into the home arts, home economics - should have been called home management and have a little more respect. I later specialized in the clothing area. That is a natural. All my high school years, I was the high school thespian; you know, school play, senior play all of that kind of stuff. And I learned early the communication factor in dress and grooming.
S: And that was just a natural interest?
J: Yeah, absolutely, one of the plays I was in I remember the name, Nuts in May, and the opening scene they’ve got me asleep in the bed and I get up - my hair then was clear down to my hips - and I got up and I do my hair in a wonderful French twist -and that was the most talked about thing- but it took me from very relaxed and homebody looking, to very professional as you go on into the play. But I was doing costumes and makeup and all that sort of thing for the character, just early on.
S: So at what point did you switch from theatre and costuming to what you do now?
J: Well, the dance, of course, went right along with that, musical comedy style and ballet - I lost that- it’s a natural, the creative arts; that’s what the home arts are and clothing, particularly fabrications, I mean, it’s in my fingers. The fabrics, the colors, the textures, I work with visual design and dress, so there they are, the elements of design: line, shape, color, texture, patterns.
S: So is that something that a person can get a degree in?
J: Yes
S: Is your degree in …?
J: My first degree is in home economics education, which now is called family and consumer science in a lot of places. They’ve tried to make it more, get more respect for the field, which people still do not. Not even in Utah; there’s very little value for the woman working in the home. But, get me back to where I was. Yes, a degree. Home economics education, which involves the nutrition, child development, rearing, psychology, sociology, anthropology & anatomy; all these things I use now constantly. The time management, money management - all of that ties in with dress. The psych ,values ,communication- all that sort of thing. So it was a natural to then focus on the clothing with colors, fabrics; I love that. And I don’t even design, really, I’m not a good fashion designer; I prefer the classics with a fashion forward creative edge to it; I do wonderful things; pulling the things together, that’s what I love.
S: So do you sew?
J: Yeah, oh yeah, tailor, all of that. My first job was teaching at University of Utah and I taught tailoring and visual design in dress. That was my first job. Then I taught junior high, high school, adult ed in Granite District in Salt Lake City. And then we went to graduate school in Princeton, New Jersey and that was a wonderful experience in cultural differences and the application to dress. We went from there as visiting professors down to Louisiana State University and again, totally different kind of a culture and wonderful experience and dress related; l the physical needs of dress, as you were in that terrible humidity there, which I still would say is terrible, miserable.
S: I’m from the Midwest, I understand.
J: Oh, you know what I’m talking about. When we moved back to New Jersey, I grew up in Washington, so I thought I knew what humidity was, wrong; humidity I got in the Midwest and New Jersey and then double barreled in Louisiana. So, physical needs became very paramount there. I started graduate school there in textiles, discovered that wasn’t for me. The machines for making things, that just isn’t where I am ; I’m definitely in the aesthetic or artistic aspect, the social psychological aspect, so that’s what I then did my next degree in; within the artistic, social psychological aspect of dress.
S: And where was
J: That was at BYU because by then my husband was back here on faculty as a physicist.
S: So is he retired from BYU?
J: Just now, uh huh, just now. Yeah. So I - within just a few months- they called and wanted me to come teach at BYU and I taught there for 12 years.
S: Oh, ok, but you’re not teaching there now
J: Because they lost the department
S: So that was a long time ago then
J: Long time, yep, long time ago
S: Ok so tell me; so is that what made you start your current business concept?
J: Well, the business end of it started when people, parents, started calling me and saying you know, you did this for my child, my daughter and so on, in your class; would you come and do it for me? And that’s how the private consulting got going. Not that I hadn’t done it in New Jersey and so on before that and taught private classes and such. But that’s one of the things I really started to hear and then the Daily Herald called me and wanted me to do a newspaper column and I loved that; I took flak for it but I loved it because (I was) getting the information to the people
J: My column came out here for years and then it went up to Salt Lake City and 16 papers in the west; and I was ten years with Deseret News; I loved it; only stopped because of my chemo; had to stop with my chemo.
S; And what year was that?
J: ’89; that year I know right off.
S: I suspected that you would know that
J: Everything is BC, before cancer; and after cancer.
S: I have some cancer survivors in my family so I understand, I understand that
S: So how do you, now in the position that you’re in, how do you reach out to women? I mean, I found you by seeing you on BYU television; so what do you do now to reach out to women?
J: The writing, I love the writing. We do retreats, but most of my work is by word of mouth; one woman to another, a man to his wife, a wife to her husband, a wife to the husband to the business owner and so on; seminars and public places and then the small group retreats, private consulting, they find me now, of course, more newly, on the internet. You know, we didn’t use to have that; in the phone book, it used to be the yellow pages they might find me and now it’s the internet
S: And you do consulting for men and women a lot.
J: You bet, absolutely, and children; families in crisis.
S: Really?
J: Yep
S: In crisis, as in?
J: Hating each other, conflicts, value conflicts of redress and appearance. You know, well the family where they’ve got a child who’s going off the deep end, extreme, in their dress and for a lot of people they’re gonna say “oh pick your battles, Judy”; it doesn’t matter, dress doesn’t matter; want to bet?; wrong. They get stuck in that phase, you know, people say it’s just a phase, well, guess what? Very often they get stuck in the phase.
S: And can you take that chance?
J: That’s right, you cannot take too many because of where it leads; how many have seen a 60 or 70 year old hippie?
S: I have
J: You know? They’re still stuck. And they’ve done very little in the way of self development or improvement. Done very little service for anybody else in the community, the world, or whatever, made very little contribution, just very self absorbed.
S: So how do you change the mind of a teenager?
J: That’s where the fun comes. Yeah, the psychology and working with it; oh it’s incredible and the scariest ones are the ones who their dress is going to take them down a road to drugs, alcohol and sex and so on; and we get it all the time.
S: And how would you describe that type of dress?
J: Well, the easiest, the obvious, is when they start dressing all black and chains
S: All “goth”?
J: Yeah, the “goth” look. That was definitely a timely look and we still get some of that. Right now, it’s deconstruction in dress. Where they take perfectly good dress and ruin it or they buy it already ruined at some high price
S: Where it’s torn and stained and the seams are on the outside
J: Yeah, see it’s not the traditional, it’s not the harmony, it’s not the classic look or even creative look; it’s totally deconstruction; take something that was nice and make it not nice; it’s a whole trend where what used to be nice isn’t anymore; it’s really sad.
S: And what do you say to kids when they say, well, that’s in style?
J: Well, then we have to find out where the style came from; and of course, in those cases, it’s hip hop designers who are trying to make the women, get the women to do extreme, some extreme aspect in dress; for example and I’m practically famous for this, but the manure pants. So you’ve got the dirt stain, dirty denim. Where did it come from? Hip hop designers, back east, who were aware of episodes in a new York city museum where the vandals spread fecal material over the pictures of Madonna and child, the Madonna and child. Oh hey, let’s see if we can get the girls to wear this on their clothes? So that’s where you get the brown stained denim. Now again, I’m practically famous for this one, it’s crazy, infamous, that’s a better word; the wrinkles at the crotch,
S: They call them whiskers?
J: Whiskers. You’ve got it and if you just think about it for a second or two, let’s see if we can get the girls to wear their pants looking as dirty as they can, which includes wrinkles at the crotch and we’re going to call them wrinkles. Attention goes to contrast, right smack to that crotch for casual sex. It’s exactly what it’s all about. Now it’s, I know what’s happening with some of the trends of that extreme sort and I can explain it to the young person and I have visuals, I have pictures
S: And what if the young person says, well, I’m not trying to get anybody to look at my crotch.
J: you may not be trying, but you can’t do anything about it because attention goes to contrast. That’s where their attention is going, regardless to whether you were intending or not. Now we’ve got a lot of people, they are intending. And that’s a key word that you just said right there and I will ask, what is your intent? And you gotta keep interviewing and interviewing to finally get them down to where they will tell the truth
S: And they say my intent is to be like my friends
J: That’s often what ‘s said, to fit in; but then we have to talk about - is it distracting?- and the key word is distracting. Is it distracting (from) the purpose of education in school, business leadership or worship, it doesn’t belong.
S: But what if they don’t value education, business leadership or worship?
J: That’s right; that’s what I’m dealing with; I’ve got to find something they do value; it’s around the block; it’s not easy; and my one line, it’s something else and I say “Hey, what I do is not rocket science; it’s harder. It’s harder.” You’re dealing with the psyche, you’re dealing with anatomy, and you know there are endless variables with both of those. And then we’re dealing with visual design where there are endless variables
S: and we become very emotional about our clothes
J: There you go. Anything to do with… It’s the most controversial topic, emotional controversial, second only to evolution.
S: So do you get feedback from people …
J: Oh you bet I do, I get the hate mail.
S: You can’t tell me what to wear?
J: Yeah, I get the hate mail; and it’s always nasty.
S: How do you feel about that?
J: It only reinforces what I’ve learned over the years. Because they’re always rude or crude, nasty; and the people who are nice to me, they look nice; look nice, feel nice, be nice, others are nicer to you.
S: So it doesn’t influence you in a negative way? Doesn’t hurt your feelings?
J: It could have years ago; I know it’s going to come with this because it is a personal and emotional subject and very close to home. Anything about dress is like, it’s a threat to them and I figured that out. I know that segment of the population is going to be mad at me and as long as I know that’s the possibility; no , it doesn’t hurt me at all because you know the rationale that they’re going to be using. Where I get hurt is if I don’t expect it. And that’ll happen once in awhile but not too often. Where I can get shot down is if there’s something that I haven’t thought of, that’s where, I’m always trying to figure it out before I go out there. Constant pondering -
S: But getting that feedback also gives you a place to focus your attention and figure that out?
J: Exactly. I got an interesting feedback; a fellow who at the end of the program regarding deconstruction, he said “get used to it babe; it’s post modern deconstruction” and the way he said it was very vile. He was trying to put me down and that one we get all the time; why are you so dressed up? You look terrific today, Sandy. They’re always going to say, why are you so dressed up? And they say it in such a way that it’s a put down to you to make you feel uncomfortable, out of place and to build them up. And it works. And our people right here in Utah have fallen for it, hook, line and sinker; it’s just amazing; you have to put - for the kids, going to school to look nice - you have to have something in their head to come out of their mouth. You know, “just say no”, you know, that kind of a thing. I tell them. When they’re saying, why don’t you wear this and this, “that’s not my style”. But you’ve gotta put it in their head to come out the mouth. And with the other, why are you so dressed up?, “well, it makes me feel terrific”. “Well, I’m worth it”. “Well, why are you so dressed down? “ Turn it around. One woman said, “this is my gift to you”. I got the biggest kick out of that. This was a gal from the south, just neat, a character from the word go, but fantastic, and she said that with every intent, genuine, wonderful, loving; “this is my gift to you”. In the workplace, “because I intend to keep my job”.
S: So dressing is way more than just picking things that look good together.
J: That’s right, absolutely. The soc/psych aspect is so, the world, but particularly Utah Valley, have enough scriptural acquaintance, and that’s all it is, no knowledge, acquaintance with the idea that dress is frivolous and vain; they’ve gone overboard that there should be no attention. I got a letter, oh my gosh, I saved it; it’s a marvelous letter, it’s so bad; the insights it gave me to this person who wrote me and tried to explain to me that we should give no thought to dress. Now this is, this is wrong.
S: IS that even possible?
J: No , not really, no, it’s an excuse. It’s an excuse. But people extrapolate, they take the idea that dress is vain and frivolous and therefore we should pay no attention to it.
S: Do you believe it’s possible to take that too far?
J: Oh yeah, absolutely. We’ve got people in Utah Valley that are not only ignorant but arrogant. We got men who take pride in not taking care of themselves.
S: But I mean is it possible that people could get so fixed on how they look?
J: Oh yes, that of course, either extreme, either extreme, gets us in trouble; you know extremes get us in trouble no matter what it is
S: Any topic
J: Yes, dress is interesting, dress and image because there is not one subject matter field out there that you can name that doesn’t have some relationship to dress. Not one.
S: OK, I’ll believe you
J: We could be here all day if we did that, but seriously, there is a relationship in every aspect of our lives, there is a clothing relationship in every one and most people don’t even think about it anymore.
S: We’re addressing women in business. So I’m a woman in business
J: And you’re looking terrific
S: Well, I’m trying to look appropriate for the setting that we’re in. Not every setting
J: Level three, you’ve got a jacket on; it’s coordinated but it’s not matched so there’s a relaxation there; it’s a fashion color, it’s brighter, it’s lively, which stimulates the conversation
S: But what if my job, if I’m a cake decorator, then this would be inappropriate
J: For that actual process of decorating a cake, you might get it onto that jacket and then you’re going to have to clean it more times than it should be and it’ll be worn out, you’ll waste your money, dadadada. But the need to pay attention to clothing is every bit as important; you want it durable, you’ve got to be able to clean it, get the dies out, things like that; because otherwise it becomes distracting to them. It’s got to be of a weight that’s going to be comfortable for the job that they’re doing; they’ve got to have shoes that are going to give the kind of support they need because most of the time they’re standing. So those are just a few things and probably in between doing the decorating maybe they’re managing the desk and taking orders
S: Waiting on customers
J: Yes, exactly; so there we need them to be able to focus on the face and what that person is communicating; they need to look knowledgeable, organized, efficient, effective; as this person places this order and they’ve got to appear that way also to set their price and have their price be accepted. And the styling they’re going to do on that cake, now see there, I’m using visuals to design a dress, the cake decorator’s using visuals to design a cake decoration, hello? The same thing. The gardener, all of them, same thing
S: And so the thing to do is if you’re dress matches your occupation, then you have the professional look without being a level three or four but you look completely professional
J: Ok now what does professional mean? You see every word has to be defined; what does professional mean in dress standards that I use? authentic, appropriate, attractive and affordable – authentic for the role; what they’re actually doing
S: Perhaps that’s the word I am using
J: Now appropriate, looking like you belong in that role; you know what to do, how to do it, how to get it done and they’re gonna get it done. So that calls for different things depending on the profession and that calls even for difference within the profession depending on what geographical area of the country we’re living in. With our clientele, all of this sort of thing has come into whatever that dress code is.
S: .. sometimes it seems like, as I go around as a consumer, that people don’t require much of their employees
J: Not anymore I know, why do you think everybody’s going out of business? Nobody knows how to do anything anymore.
S: But do you suppose the people avoid that because they don’t know what to require, are afraid to require, all of that?
J: Absolutely, definitely. Now there is no real dress code except the one that I created – the style scale, personal professional style scale, and that works, that gives you a visualization, dressing up and down means something, and we can define it in terms of the elements of design. What are those actual cues? You know everybody says or hears at some point, or reads at some point, “look out for the message you’re sending”. Or” watch out about the statement you’re sending”.
S: If you don’t know how to send a statement, it doesn’t matter what it is
J: That’s right, but what they really don’t know is they haven’t gotten a clue what’s doing the talking; and what’s doing the talking are the elements and principles of design, the lines, shapes, colors, textures and patterns. How they’re put together; the balance proportion scale, the rhythmic eye movements throughout the outfit leading to one dominant focal point and for business, leadership needs to be up around the face; social, it can be lower on the body. Relaxed or social, but for business leadership, it’s your face where you communicate and you’ve got to have the focus up there. And if we’ve got a hole in the $360 Levis, that’s distracting, attention goes away from the face; we get the character who in his arrogance who wears the white shirt, which there’s nothing sacred about that, by the way, but he wears the French cuff and he lets them all flop. He doesn’t put a cuff link and he lets them flop and he thinks he’s being cool but what does that really mean? Well, they think they’re being brave; they’re so brave they’ll do that and I’m not, we’re not, we’re not brave enough to wear our cuff link shirts without cufflinks. But what they don’t realize, it’s just totally distracting with things flapping around; they’re never going to accomplish a real goal; it’s not going to happen; they’re going to make a major statement of defiance but they’re not going to accomplish anything of value.
S: And so defiance, sort of works at odds with cooperation, progress
J: Absolutely, defiance and rebellion, and they’re intent with those sleeves flapping, their intent is to make a statement; I’m cool, my dad wore his shirts buttoned there at the cuff; I’m so brave, I choose not to; I refuse to do that. It’s a rebellion, defiance.
S: And people think though that rebellion is the beginning of progress and you would disagree with that
J: Oh yeah, absolutely. People think that dress is a safe way to rebel. What they’re really doing is saying they’re pretty stupid. What they’re really doing, the little gal I saw in the store yesterday, pushing the grocery cart, probably was a student, she’s there with a roommate and she’s (wearing) a t shirt and pink pajamas on. Yeah, the grocery store. And it’s just flannel and they’re fuller cut, you know, to be comfortable in bed, so these pants are made out of flannel. What. She thinks she’s cute. Not. And she’s actually looking pretty much heavier than she really was and she wasn’t trim and that’s alright too, depending on her values there and her health. But it becomes distracting, a little pattern in the pajama bottom and you see, in the grocery store that did not communicate she knew what she was doing where and so on. She thinks she’s really clever and what it really looks like is she doesn’t know how to dress. She hasn’t got a clue. She’s doing this because it’s a trend she’s following, she’s a follower. And so there’s probably little leadership ability, probably, and notice my word, probably, because I don’t really know, but what is she communicating?
S: You’ve observed her
J: Yeah, that’s right, the observation. And what’s really coming across is that there is little organization, efficiency, effectiveness; it’s not gonna happen; she’s more caught up in herself, very self absorbed; that’s what comes across because she’s choosing to wear her pajamas that she got out of bed in or to look like that and has come to the store. In that attire, the people are not going to accomplish what they could accomplish if they weren’t caught up in that sort of thing, which is what they are. We could talk all day
S: So they couldn’t, they certainly could purchase groceries in their pajamas but you’re talking about in the bigger picture of their lives that that kind of attitude that drives you to wear your pajamas to the grocery store will limit you in other areas.
J: yeah, exactly and she’s expressing a defiance. A substantial degree of defiance; thinks it’s cute, thinks its clever, thinks she’s brave because her roommate and others aren’t doing it; she’s the brave one. When, if I do the surveys, and I do, we do the surveys, and it’s gonna come down to dumb and stupid.
S: So when you survey people ?
J: I show them a picture and ask what it communicates. That’s all I say. They’ll ask me all sorts of questions, I give no answers, it’s up to you; your impression, your observation. What comes to mind; what’s your first descriptive thought
S: Do you notice if somebody is wearing pajamas, if they would describe that person differently than someone like you and I. I would look at that and I would probably say it looks stupid, but what if you’re a pajama wearer, would that person look at that and relate to that in a different way?
J: They also think they are cute and clever; we tend to attract, likes attract like; ok, we know that; and so they’re most comfortable with people who dress like themselves. That is just standard psychology there, that we’re more comfortable with people who are like us and so we seek that out.
S: So the adjective they would use would be much more positive.
J: Oh yes, absolutely. But if you really keep at them in an inquisitory kind of a way, you eventually get down to rock bottom and it’s an amazing experience when they get down there. I was with a college group and (asked) what does it mean to be in fashion? And somebody, without even thinking, she said, “.. fashionable, to be in style”, that was it; ; what does it mean to be in style? “fashionable”. What does that mean? “Edgy” What does that mean? ”Sexy” and it was out and then looking around. This was a board group.
S: Is there a difference to you between fashion and style?
J: Absolutely.
S: And what would that difference be?
J: Well, fashion and even there (are) different definitions of fashion. Fashion is the prevailing look of the times. And fashion is the mirror of history. And if you think about that, we’re living in a very scary time right now of rebellion, it’s a very scary time. Style, very simply is the combination of line creating a shape in a garment. So you have clothing styles, an A line skirt a straight skirt, trousers versus slacks, the styling is different. The styling is created with a line and shape.
S: So we use styling perhaps more casually than we should?
J: Oh no, because they are all culture, culturally, but no, it’s still you’ve got one word with several different meanings. A person has a particular style. If they have one kind of a look, that can be considered their style, ok? So there’s “in style”, there’s style which is the style of the garment, there’s in style looking like everybody else and there is having style which is generally something unique to the individual. And the ones of the icons we hear all the time, Fred Astaire, Audrey Hepburn, Princess Grace, and we can come more current now too and but now sadly it’s all celebrities of course. What are they trying to do? They’re trying to get media attention so they want to go as extreme- they want to shock everybody as extremely as they possibly can think of. So for them to be the icons now is really, really sad but that’s what kids are doing and of course Brittany was the quintessential , I didn’t say that right, but you know what I mean, Brittany with her low rider and
S: Can I say how glad I am that’s going away
J: Going maybe. Our young people haven’t got a clue where their waistline is, not a clue, yes, they’re trying to reverse that, you know, low rider, now we’re to empire again. What is crazy there, all of our maternity clothes are now - the gals who are pregnant are wearing the tight t shirts like the teens and the teens are wearing the maternity tops. Just exactly with the empire, loose empire line, just exactly.
And why did they do that sort of thing? Because mom isn’t. Whatever mom isn’t wearing, mom and dad, that’s what they’re, the next generations, gonna want to wear.
S: So what do you say to people who say, women wore dresses down to the ground and there were people, when the hemlines went up, who went, “oh!”
J: Well, clear to the floor, that’s an extreme isn’t it?
S: Well but it wasn’t, it was the norm, it was the norm; when the dresses came up, there were people who said that was wrong
J: They had totally accepted the extreme, so then it comes up and it’s “oh!”, yes?.
S: But today, let’s fast forward to today, what do you say to people who say you are trying to maintain something and not moving?
J: They just haven’t seen my visual demonstrations because if they are actually ever around me they would see this incredible wide range of things we do, never a problem in that sense. Not trying to keep anybody in a slot or anything like that, uh uh. And that’s where the style scale works so well because it allows the mix of levels 4 and 1 and we show them how to do it; we’ve gotta have a concept and a strategy people can work with. Part of the problem with fashion right now, in dress and image, is people have forgotten how to do it; we’ve got three generations who no longer have a clue how to dress; they weren’t taught in the home, they’re not taught in the schools anymore and GenX and GenY and so on; so they’ve forgotten, they’ve never learned and they don’t know how to dress, but nobody’s about to admit it so you have to put it down to make them feel better, right? And that’s what they’ve done. There is greater fear now about fashion than there’s ever been historically, ever.
S: And who’s afraid?
J: The people who don’t know how to dress. They’re totally fearful. You know it used to be the number one fear, supposedly, the world’s number one fear was public speaking; it’s not anymore, everyone wants their 5 or 15 minutes on Oprah.
S: on the internet or
J: and on the reality shows, so it’s not that anymore. The number one fear is fashion. And I’m here to say, hey, it’s time to take out the fear, put back in the fun. Fashion used to be fun. It was something that added variety to life, it was fun to get up and say, you know, who do I want to be today, who am I, where am I going? What do I want to communicate? It was fun. And we wore a variety. It’s no longer fun - In jeans and t shirts every day of your life or polo and khakis every day of your life. We’ve lost the fun, there’s no creativity, there’s no artistry anymore. There’s little harmony, very little beauty; we’re losing all of those things.
S: And so what do you think your role is in keeping that from happening?
J: Well I don’t know that I can keep it from happening. We may already be too far. I predicted exactly where we are right now,including the economic meltdown; ’85 I wrote a piece called “America’s going down the tube in a tshirt” and I said this and this and this and this is where we’re headed, what’s gonna happen and guess what? We’re there; it’s already, yeah, the dot com bust, I predicted that; nobody could predict 9-11 but the minute it happened I said, now we’re going to go a little bit back to nicer dressing because the minute you have a scare, a threat, you go back into classic dressing because we made it through the last time and maybe that will help us get through it this time; we retreat; then we moved right out of that quick. And so we’re really into the deconstruction for so many people.
S: So where do you see the future?
J: The future, if I and others like me, can find a vehicle, a voice, to re-teach the points about, the elements of design, visual design in dress, to re-teach people visual design in dress, we could turn it around. But people say, it’s gonna swing, the pendulum will swing; not once you’ve lost the information. Once the information is gone, nobody pulls it back up because they don’t even know where to go. And that’s happening, we’re there now. So I will have to, before I die out, I’m going to have to find a vehicle, and I’m working on it, but I don’t know that my lifetime will allow me to do it, in which case, we may be the unisex dressing, jeans and tshirts and sweats for men and women from now on. That’s it. The suit which is a negative put down; people wearing suits, usually are government politicians kinds of people; uniform people and so on, police, all of that; they will continue to be the keepers of the flame, the fire, try to keep things right but they’re losing control. We are headed for anarchy. And all you have to do is look at dress and anarchy is what’s here.
S: Wow, ok, so we should be afraid?
J: Yeah, we absolutely should be. America’s just a little over 200 years (in) existence, right? If you get into history, great civilizations, after they passed about 200 years, they start to fall, and we’re right there and it’s happening. Very scary.
S: So you don’t work here alone?
J: No.
S: As we toured through here earlier, you spoke of others. So how many people work with you here?
J: I like that word “with”, I don’t like “for”; they work with me, we’re very much colleagues. It depends because we will have people come through our educational training and they will work with me for awhile and then often they move, especially here in Utah Valley where I live, because you’ve got all these universities, university students, and I may get someone who wants to go into this field; they’ll study with me, develop their skills and so on, but when one of the married couple graduates and they move away. So I’ve got wonderful people out in the field, different places; right now, here, we’re slower right now with having a lot of people here to work with me and that kills me, I would love to have more. I just am always looking for the bright star, the person who’s going to be able to take over and, I’ve gotten us to a certain place with information, concepts and strategies I’ve developed. Truths I’ve been able to work out; I don’t want it to die when I die and I teasingly say, I’m looking at the end of the runway. But I still run circles around virtually everybody else who works with me or for me, whatever; they all talk about that. But I’m looking for that bright star.
S: So do you have other people who work with you who teach your …
J: Yeah, concepts; It’s not just mine, classic, bonafide art and science of dress and image; the people who go through architecture, it’s the same thing; I’m teaching the same thing, just in reference to dress instead of a building, ok?
S: So you teach people not only to do it personally, to personally dress and develop their own image and style, but you also teach people how to teach others.
J: Yes and too, they think they want to do what I do and I teach and educational training in that; very intensive.
S: And both of those things are part of your…
J: Prior to consulting with individuals we’ll do group consulting, seminar workshop kinds of things; I do seminars for associations, business groups, government groups, you name it and then I write text books and trade books; in the field, we’ve done DVD, got a new book coming out, in fact, one of the books; this will blow your mind. I’m right now, we just turned in the manuscript to our New York publisher for a book I wrote with my colleagues in 1976, try that one. It’s still a best seller in the field, and they called us about a year and a half ago to do a new edition. We’re thrilled, thrilled out of our minds, that’s so exciting.
S: and how much did you have to change it, from 1976?
J: Oh the learning, the new learnings that we’ve come up with, the new strategies, is phenomenal. It’s going to be a magnificent book; it was the best in field before but now it’s utterly incredible; it’s the bible in the field of fitting and alteration; very technical; thousands of illustrations; and Kathy Adams here in my office, she has become literally the world’s finest computer illustrator for this pattern work, she’s wonderful.
S: And she works with you?
J: Yeah, with me, we’ve been together about almost 18 years now. There’s never a bad word between us. Wonderful. The people I work with are fantastic.
S: So did she come to you skilled or did she develop that?
J: She developed it; her family is highly skilled with computers; it was something she wanted to develop when she came; we were acquainted previously and then I heard her one day say, “she’s probably gonna have to get a job”; oh what kind?; oh probably in banking; what?; you can manage the books? And so I hired her to take over all my bookkeeping. And then office manager and then, and as we do, we want our employees or friends to progress in ways they want to progress and I asked her, now, you’ve been doing this and this and this and this with me for all this time now, how would you like to grow? And she said it was in her computer graphic skills and so on. I said, you bet. So the one woman who then was doing the computer graphic kind of work had moved to Nephi and so it wasn’t working out so well back and forth, you know. And so Kathy took over her position and then I hired somebody to take over what Kathy’d done. So I’d, this kind of rotation, we’ve done.
S: So you would say you have personal friendship with these women?
J: You bet, wonderful people.
S: And so currently, how many women are we talking about? You two and how many other women? In your organization now.
J: Well, I’ve got over a hundred who are affiliates around the country, who are active to differing degrees. Depending on their lifestyle, their stage of life, things like that, to different degrees. Right here in Utah Valley now, right now because most people have moved away, I don’t have anybody but in March, I do an educational training and we’ve got two Utah residents, two coming to the program and that’s exciting. And one of them’s mid age lifestyle and so she’s not gonna probably be moving away. I’m excited about that.
S: Maybe someone who could hold the torch for a little while.
J: Absolutely, that’s what I’m looking for
S: So let’s talk about fashion things as they pertain specifically to women in the workplace; and then I want to talk just a little bit about women in the home. In the workplace, what our biggest challenge is in terms of workplace dressing.
J: Two things, to look like we’ve got a brain and to have the clothing fit so it’s not distracting. So our body shape doesn’t distract people, attention of people, from our work. So those would be the two. Looking like we’ve got a brain, you know if someone says, “oh my gosh, he looks so sharp”, “she looks so sharp”, where did that come from. From the pointed collar, the pointed edge on a collar; that’s where that statement came. Oh my, he looks so sharp. It’s the pointed collar; wearing a collar.
S: Pressed?
J: Yes. No starch, no starch, I recommend we don’t use any starch, uh uh. Tends to be more uncomfortable and it’s not necessary. So ideally and when you use that word professional that you used earlier, working with the tailored elements of design, it’s straight lines, angular shapes
S: And those are more appropriate generally in a business setting?
J: In a business setting because they communicate; straight lines communicate alertness, sharpness, the diagonal line communicates action- gonna get it done. That kind of thing. And the collar look is excellent; it lifts the look, brings our face for better communication but for a woman also, if we have a full body area in that upper torso, the collar distracts attention from that body area; we want enough ease in the fit of the clothing
S: So that you don’t have the buttons pull
J: That’s right but it’s stress lines too; the buttons may or may not be pulled but there’s stress lines and they radiate right around the bust area. It’s like a red flag, it says look here, and these lines say this is the place, hello. It doesn’t work, it doesn’t work, it’s distracting. So straighter lines, more angles. That is not to say we can’t wear a t shirt but even then, don’t make it an underwear shirt, make it a little bit more of a scoop; we get a little dark-light contrast with the skin because of the clothing; it bespeaks something that isn’t underwear and then we can even have the third layer piece of clothing, have the collar on it; and so you’ve got lots of options there.
S: Now do you recommend the third layer? In a business setting?
J: Ideally, make your statement the beginning of the day; or if you’re giving a presentation, it’s easy to put it on the back of your chair if you’re too warm; if you just want a little more ease of movement, even then, and see this is where people are so wrong again, they assume business clothes have to be uncomfortable, physically uncomfortable. Nonsense. We’ve got softer fabrics now. And we get enough ease in there. We’ve also got a little bit of the elastic and so on, spandex in there, it’s easy to get comfort in dress now if it’s properly fitted. And an ease amount, that’s what we’re looking for; a little bit of ease around the upper arm, around the bust, around our middrift and so on those areas; then on down, of course, with our tummies and bellies and behinds, side thighs, those things; we’ve gotta have enough ease for the clothing to flow over that body area; that’s what’s key, the clothing can just ease over that area
S: But sometimes people say “I look like a tent”
J: No, we can show off that waist, we can have it darted, belted, lots of things and there’s where we were talking earlier; everybody can wear a belt, they just don’t know how, and if they layer it, then my teasing comment, you’ve got a 4 inch waist but they just need to be taught how; you see women used to know how to do it. And we lost that information now.
S: So where do we go to get that information?
J: By the way, chamber meeting, a week ago Friday, I put up a display; we get to do that quite often, I put up a display and I had a picture of a woman, straight on and she had side thighs I tell you that didn’t quit. Now I’ve got side thighs, you’re welcome to look at them, but she had side thighs that were twice the size of me; and she was wearing black pants in the before picture; and as people walked by, I had one man say, oh poor girl, with reference to these side thighs; but then the next, the after picture, I’ve got her in a duster, and it’s a duster vest and it’s fantastic and everybody says, oh, liposuction, wrong; strictly dressing her in a way that minimize those thighs. The fabric skimmed right past, there’s nothing wrong with a rectangular silhouette, straight hanging silhouette. And attention went into the middle, she looks slim, went up to the face, it was marvelous. But from poor girl with dominant attention to those side thighs to absolutely looking slim, totally confident, capable, credible, all of those good kinds of things.
S: So the duster means that it came down
J: It came (down), this third layer piece came to just above the calf. A duster’s meant to be there. A duster is just a long shirt or long vest, that’s all it is; it’s pretty ordinary but it has a sheik kind of a look; people, that’s not my word, that’s what people say, oh my gosh, look she’s so sheik. It’s a style of clothing but it communicates style; she’s doing something out of the ordinary, very special and it causes her to appear very slim, not obtuse, no distracting bulges on the body so attention goes into the middle; the color contrast at the opening and up to her face; and you know we’re straight on for either good communications in a social situation or a work situation, it works. So the two things there; ease and some straighter lines in the business world. Right now we’ve got so much fru fru, we’ve got girly clothes.
S: Too much distraction really
J: yeah, and cuteness and you used the word, cutesy, that’s my word too; the minute we look cutesy, people aren’t going to take us seriously; not in handling their money and handling their business and so on, doesn’t work.
S: So is it still a male world? The business world?
J: No. It is definitely not and we’ve got so many women owned businesses, uh uh, absolutely not. But it is a tailored world. We need to look like we mean business. We need to appear as though we know what to do, how to do, there I go again you see. And that’s the tailored look, the straighter lines
S: That we’re focused, we’re efficient, that we’re organized,
J: yep, draw attention in and up, yep;
S: Now what if you work at home?
J: Same thing
S: So you dress up if nobody can see you?
J: That’s right because it affects you first. Now here’s where I’m coming from, the way you appear, and I put it this way, the way you choose to present yourself; see you’re the one in charge, the way you choose to present yourself, affects the way you think. Here’s the universal affects of image: the way you think , the way you feel, the way you act and only then, the way others react or respond to you.
S: So the first person you impact with your dress is you?
J: That’s right
S: and you can’t escape from you
J: No you can’t; and you’re not looking at your clothes but even your peripheral vision will see the colors and those will influence you; you feel the fabric on your body, that will influence you; you either feel sharp or you feel dowdy; you feel confident or you feel down;
S: Sloppy or
J: That’s right; when we are in sloppy kinds of clothes, we shuffle; you start watching people, they slump and they shuffle; do you know women’s magazines have always had articles about posture; I have never seen our magazines about posture for men until recently because our men in their flip flops and their super sloppy clothes are shuffling around, slopping around. And all of a sudden, we’re getting posture articles for men. You know there’s a logic; everthing that’s going on, there is a logic, I promise.
S: interesting – so if I wanted to take my business to the next level; if I wanted to be seen as more credible at what I do, what kind of impact can I expect from putting focus on the appearance of myself and my employees?
J: You know, everybody uses this language, take yourself to the next level; no one defines the level, what the next level is; everybody uses it loosely, we need to define where it is we want to go, what we want to do, we need to make our dress and image part of our business plan.
S: And we should dress ahead, maybe, of where we are?
J: That’s very possible if you’re aiming someplace else, yeah, definitely. But you’ve got to be careful; some of the things that are out there, they’ll say you gotta dress like your boss – wrong. Maybe your boss is dressing like a slob, you don’t want to go there. And you don’t have to go way above, I mean, a leather jacket, a suede jacket, terrific in the workplace. Straighter lines, it’s got a nice body, a firmness to itself; but it has a relaxed texture to it, you with me? And it works. So you’ve got options; boiled wool, wonderful fabric; zipper down the front, doesn’t have to be a double breasted jacket. You’ve got all these options; if you want and using that word level, that’s what I use with the style scale; level four, that matched suit is the dress code; the cue, the clue, the symbol of level 4, tailored dress, most authoritative, is a matched suit. But I showed today, in my seminar on campus, a denim suit, but it was kind of a yellowy tan color; it was a safari jacket style and a flared skirt, flared lower at the bottom, the way the trend has been; fantastic suit, level 4; but it’s way down on level 4. I’ll dress down, we go to level 3. Softly tailored – we recognize it by a jacket; now today, in your picture, that’d be good, today, you’re wearing this fun apple green jacket contrasted with the white shirt. Both of them contrasting with the reddish tint to your hair; it’s great. You stand out; you’re the focal point; people connect with you, communicate with you. I know right where you are and where you’re coming from. It works. That jacket, level 3; if in doubt, wear your jacket. It’ll move you up but it could be something as relaxed, low on level 3 as a jean jacket, we do it all the time. It’s a bomber style and we do it all the time; so there’s options; I do one seminar where I have maybe 30 different jackets on the rack, all go with the core pieces; and all I have to do is tell the audience, each person in the audience, to pick out your favorite jacket. They’re showing me their personal style. And then I can define it. And then they can do it again.
S: Do people, is it possible or even right, wrong – I’m not sure I asked cause I’m so, you know, ignorant of this world that you live in
J: I used the word ignorant but let’s say unknowledgable, ok
S: ok to mix things from different levels
J: Oh we do it, that’s the whole point, that’s where you arrive at personal style. So casual, tailored level 2, the cue or clue or symbol is a shirt with a collar and untailored level 1 is no collar.
S: I’ve seen blouses that are very nice fabric, very lovely tailor, no collar
J: That’s right, that’s right and it’s a higher quality fabric and construction; your dress code can embody
S: So do they stay in the number one just because they’re collarless
J: The top is level 1 but it’s high on level 1 because it’s a finer fabric, more refined fabric and that’s the word, refined; more refined fabric and perfect construction, outstanding quality in the construction; now, put that jewel neck blouse, under a crepe, a wool crepe and polyester crepe, a silk crepe suit jacket, ok?
S: With a matching skirt or pants
J: That’s right, now you’ve got your level 1 top with a level 4 jacket, that’s exactly right, your level four suit, that’s exactly right. Yep. That’s how you do it. We could take that level 4 suit and put a shawl collar on it instead of a notched lapel; put a shawl that’s rounded lines, you see, we softened the look. That’ll be lower on level 4 than the woman or the man in a notched collared suit
S: Ok we talked a lot about clothes; what about accessories?
J: OK there’s going to be the same level 4, level 3, level 2, level 1 in accessories also. That closed toe, heeled pump, a woman’s pump, is going to give greater visibility and therefore, visual authority. Flip flops don’t cut it and they’re noisy and distracting; so again, that word distracting.
S: How about just an open toed shoe?
J: Open toed, again, how much? Is it a peek toe? Which is about the size of your finger tip, no big deal, wear it. It’s when we start seeing the colors of the nails or uncut nails or dirty toenails, that’s when we’re in trouble. Cracked heels, that’s why; wear the closed heeled shoe. We’ve got people who are sick to death of seeing everybody’s cracked dirty heels in their flip flops; of course, the posture goes down, they don’t look like they can stand up straight, got trouble
S: What about hosiery?
J: Hosiery, oh that’s it, now you hit a beaut. That one’s controversial.
S: It’s a sticky topic, isn’t it?
J: We’ve gotten lazy in virtually all areas of dress, we’ve gotten lazy. It takes another step to put on a stocking. It’s definitely going to tie in with the temperature outside where you live
S: So is it ever appropriate to skip the hosiery?
J: Absolutely and that’s where I’m headed. It’s going to depend on how long the skirt is, what the weight of the fabric is, the shape of your leg, the condition of your leg; we’ve got women 50, 60 and 70 going without stockings. I was at a fashion show just last week, literally a fashion show, and they were older models and this gal was there with no stockings. I happened, she came around the L shape there, I happened to look at her legs; it was a disaster and she was out there with no stockings; she so needed the stockings on to soften the look of the legs, the mottling, the spotting, the varicose veins and all of this and that; she so needed a stocking. You say when can we go without them, or ask that, it’s if we’re going to wear a longer skirt. If you want to go without stockings, wear a longer skirt.
S: Is at your knee and above, put on your stockings?
J: That’s right, put on your stockings.
S: No matter how beautiful your legs are?
J: That’s right, it’s just so important. There was a gal on the cover of a fashion magazine and they had her in a great looking suit and she was squatted down so from the front of the magazine, you got her calf, the calf of her shin, her leg, her shin, thank you. And what you saw, she was Asian with very dark hair, what you saw was all those hair follicles; black hair follicles. Not that neat. I swear our young women have prettier legs than we ever had; I don’t know why, they look smoother, I agree, they look smoother, they look nicer. And very youthful and that beautiful, smooth kind of a look; a skirt to the knee, just an inch under the knee, I can handle it too. But so many times where the leg, even, is eye level, and that’s when not. Now clothing sets, this is an important point, clothing sets the parameters of social expectations. Ok. You put on that third layer, it doesn’t make you look fat, but it is somewhat larger, it draws more attention to you and communicates more visual authority, that layer; stockings, that was a protective layer, it was a modesty layer; that sheer stocking over your leg says “hands off”. We take off that stocking and I’ve had the men tell me and I had one man literally, very bold, ran his hand straight up my leg and he told me “that’s my territory”. Now that’s the arrogance we’re dealing with. The gals have not grown up with them; their mothers or grandmothers wear them, therefore they refuse to wear them. So we’re right back to the rebellion thing. That’s why it’s happened. On purpose
S: Men don’t have this stocking challenge.
J: Oh hey, do they, haven’t you read the latest there? They’re wearing tights. Men in tights? They’re wearing a full tight all the way up their leg. Gals know, you do that, pants over tights; they pull on each other, right? Miserable.
S: Why do they do it?
J: Because it’s weird, because it’s different; it’s a bit shocking. Anything for attention, that’s what it is. Totally for attention
S: I can’t imagine that I would put on hosiery that I didn’t have to wear
J: But the stocking thing; if we want to go without the stockings, very simply, wear a longer skirt, it’s easy. Not a problem.
S: Ok, so there are times when it’s ok to be without stockings
J: When you want to appear more refined, more refined, not drawing attention to your body; the stockings, that’s when you’re gonna wear them. And you get a nice sheer one.
S: When you’re dressed at level 4, would you most likely have on a stocking
J: Yes, that will be one of the characteristics; absolutely; you’ve got the straight lines, angular shapes, darker, duller colors, strong dark/light contrast, firm fabric, and geometric pattern. Then you would add more structure, generally the shoulder pad, see there’s power, visual shape there, I don’t want to use the power look. Visual shape there, solidity, a lift to the look, a little broader, stronger, inverted triangle it creates. And then we go to - and I looked at the clock as she did, that too, what are we doing by the way
S: We have to stop, it’s time for you to go, I could talk to you…
J: We could talk forever, but add to that listing , more structure, more refined quality, and you see, that’s what’s at level 4 and that’s where the stocking comes in. Hosiery is one of the characteristics, symbols of level 4. And the finest mens stockings is called hosiery also. You get down to level 1 and it’s no stockings, no hosiery, so again, it’s just the opposite. Once you learn the two opposites, it’s a piece of cake, and you do in fact, mix in between and that’s where you create your own personal style. You start doing it, understanding it, you’re having fun again. Fun with fashion. And then it’s filling not only these needs, physical, psychological, social, aesthetic needs
S: And can you not draw the reaction, the respect, the things that you want, what you say, to you by the way you dress? Instead of telling people
J: Absolutely. We’re talking about respect for the individual, respect for the self, respect for others, respect for the occasion. Those three. And that’s what we’ve lost.
S: So in 30 seconds, do you have any hobbies outside of fashion?
J: Oh yeah, food. I love to cook, love to eat
S: What’s your favorite down time thing, if you had an hour
J: Theatre; I just got my tickets for Madame Butterfly, the ballet; I’ve never seen a ballet of Madame Butterfly, it’s new; my husband and I love theatre, be it ballet, any kind of dance, any kind of dance, in the theatre
S: So your first passion is still theatre
J: I love it , and again it’s that expression, that expressive art form
S: And when you watch theatre, can you relax and enjoy it, or do you watch the costuming?
J: If they’re doing a good job, no you get totally into it; you are totally absorbed by the, what they’re creating
S: and so if they’ve not done a good job, then it’s a distraction to you?
J: I might, oh my gosh, they should have done this with the shoulder; they should have done that with the hem, yeah, that can happen too. You know, people ask me, and if I can conclude on this, people ask me, don’t you get sick of looking at people? We don’t do that, we tend to notice those that look very good and those that look very bad; now in people watching, that’s a good thing to do, and figure out why. When you’re looking sharp, we tend not to even, it’s just very nice, we tend not to notice at all. And I don’t, I forget all about it. We tend to notice the very good and the very bad
S: So if you want to be noticed, you have to be one of those I suppose?
J: yeah, well, to get noticed, to get attention. If we don’t have enough attention in our lives, people use clothing to get it, dress and grooming to get the attention. But it’s often negative attention. One of my bottom lines is, you’re never fully dressed without a smile. That’s the bottom line.
Sandy: Thank you, let’s just stop on that very positive, happy note.
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